Hamilton Baiden 00:07
In terms of clinical trials is a very simple way to explain it. These were patients that had been admitted to the hospital either with drug or alcohol issues and so difficult patients. And it was very simple. The control group was treatment as usual. Maybe it was inpatient rehab, maybe it was intense outpatient, maybe it was MAT, cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever. The second group, same treatment as usual, but they were given an ACE coach at their disposal one of our coaches for six months. And at the end of the trial, it was it was pretty astounding the treatment is usable group. At the end of six months, 34%, we’re still engaged with that treatment. If you had one of our coaches, the number was 84%. And that the graph is phenomenal. Obviously out of the gate, you get a little bit of engagement in the control group, our engagement shoots up to like 80%. And then our engagement even continues to creep up a little bit over six months, the control group falls off the face of the earth after 30 days.
Gregg Masters 01:01
PopHealth Week is brought to you by Health Innovation Media. Health Innovation Media brings your brand narrative alive via original or value-added digitally curated content for omnichannel distribution and engagement. Connect with us at www.popupstudio.productions. And welcome everyone. I’m Gregg Masters, Managing Director of Health Innovation Media and the producer co-host of PopHealth Week. Joining me in the virtual studio is my partner Colleague and lead co-host of PopHealth Week Fred Goldstein, President of Accountable Health, LLC. On today’s show, our guests are Hamilton Baiden, President Heritage Health Solutions and Rich Jones, Executive Vice President for Heritage Health Solutions and the Executive Director of Heritage Cares. So Fred, with that brief introduction over to you help us get to know Hamilton and Rich’s work at Heritage.
Fred Goldstein 01:58
Thanks so much, Greg and Hamilton and Rich. Welcome to PopHealth Week.
Hamilton Baiden 02:01
Thanks.
Fred Goldstein 02:02
Yeah, it’s fantastic. It should be a very interesting show an area we’ve not dived into a lot, but obviously of extreme importance. So why don’t we start out first, Hamilton, why don’t you give us a little bit of your background? And then you Rich?
Hamilton Baiden 02:12
Yes, sir. So my name is Hamilton Baden. I’m president of a company called Heritage Health Solutions. Been in healthcare now for getting close to 30 years, spent many years as a pharmaceutical individual in the pharmaceutical manufacturing world. And about 15 years ago was asked to join a small, independently owned specialty pharmacy, where I was in charge of really the growth of the business. We grew that company from a small $25 million company to a $1.65 billion company over those 13 years and sold it one of the big wigs which was Optum. And now I was blessed to be asked to join the team at Heritage a few years ago. And I think on a personal note, I’m a recovering alcoholic, I had a lot of that success deep in the throes of alcoholism, even though I didn’t know what it was and didn’t know how it affected me and my job and my family and everything else. And so I’m, I’m very proud to say that in about a week, I will be nine years sober and I’m extremely proud of
Fred Goldstein 03:18
that’s fantastic and you Rich.
Rich Jones 03:21
So like Hamilton, I’m in recovery myself, it’s a 19 years will be 20 years in February. From a professional standpoint, I’ve been I got my background in behavioral health. It’s very interesting when I think about my career and kind of like the trajectory of it. I’ve been in it for about 20 years. And I feel like I’ve worked in nearly every aspect of behavioral health from like inpatient psychiatric, to private rehabilitation centers, and most recently, doing some innovative stuff in the peer recovery space. So that and Hamilton, I met disappointed guests about 18 months ago, and I’m now with heritage health.
Fred Goldstein 04:02
So tell us a little bit about Heritage Health and Heritage Cares.
Hamilton Baiden 04:05
Okay, so Fred Heritage Health Solutions is an integrated health care management company. And every time I say that, I kind of laugh and say, What the hell does that actually mean? So, what basically what we do is we manage the healthcare behind the scenes of a lot of public entity organization. So for about 15 years, we’ve had a very intense relationship with the Department of Veteran Affairs, and also with the United States Marshals, we actually run the healthcare for all detainees in the custody of the US Marshals. So when you think about those two groups, it’s really important because not a lot of people connect those dots. But when you think about veterans and you think about individuals in jail or prison, there is a very big similarity and it’s all has to do with substance misuse and suicide. Some of the numbers that have been out there for years and years are just incredible. 22 veterans die by suicide every day in this country, about 80% of them struggle with substance misuse, if you look on the on the jail or prison side, roughly 65% of people in jail or prison have full-blown substance use disorder. So when we really acknowledge this and understood it, we really got frustrated that we’ve treated these people the same way for so many years. And we’ve spent billions and billions of dollars and nothing seemed to change. And so I was lucky enough to meet who Rich who I call my brother that we didn’t know about. And we developed this program called Heritage Cares, which is, it’s just a very, very innovative way of looking at this program or at this problem and addressing it in a way that we don’t think has really ever been done before. I don’t know, Rich, if you want to add anything to that?
Rich Jones 05:43
No, I think, well, in my experience, like I shared a little bit at the beginning kind of coming out of very traditional behavioral health models that were all driven by this idea of a willing client, you know, there’s this joke of how many, how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Well, only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change, right? So it’s this idea of it’s all predicated on Rich need needs to be sufficiently motivated. Now, and also, the best way to get Rich sufficiently motivated is to have him experience enough pain to be sufficiently motivated. But if he if he is, he’ll do what we tell him to do. And he’ll get better. And I just, you know, got to the point where I couldn’t tolerate that anymore. And I want to go on the record and say that I’m not talking about programs or people specifically, it’s very weird for me to talk about this, because I have a lot of friends in the industry. And I and I respect a lot of programs. And I believe in therapy. My goodness, I’m the most therapized person on the face of the planet. And I have an individual therapist, I have a couples therapist, I have a family therapist, so on and so forth. It’s the system that sort of like is set up this way. That really I started to have difficulty with the reimbursement system, the structures and the institutions that support that meeting Hamilton and being able to get Heritage Cares to scale and being able to get this approach that says, No, we’re going to help you figure it out, whether you kind of are willing or not. That’s been refreshing. That’s been and that’s the philosophical foundation for Heritage Cares.
Fred Goldstein 07:18
And what you reference is an industry approach that says in essence, that person needs to hit bottom
Rich Jones 07:25
absolutely
Fred Goldstein 07:25
right.
Rich Jones 07:26
Yeah, absolutely.
Fred Goldstein 07:27
And so this is sort of a Go ahead.
Rich Jones 07:31
Well, any any history of quote-unquote hitting bottom is very, very interesting, Fred never been studied, never really been looked at, it was almost, it’s a slogan that comes out of 12 step meetings. So it’s kind of like this. And people started saying it to each other and saying it to family members because they didn’t know what else to say, Hamilton has to want it he has to hit bottom and have enough pain and was written in the Big Book, it appears in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous a couple times but for the record, there’s never been any kind of like, clinical trial or any kind of research that has reinforced the idea of waiting for somebody to get get worse before you intervene. So in so it’s not.
Fred Goldstein 08:12
So in essence, what you’re trying to do is intervene earlier, you say it’s okay to begin to try to work on this process much earlier than waiting for an individual to hit bottom.
Rich Jones 08:20
Absolutely. Yeah, I think it’s I think it’s the ethical thing to do is to start earlier, and, and you start with different goals. And this is also one of the Heritage Cares, like core values. You start with different goals. It isn’t about abstinence, for example, Hamilton doesn’t have to swear off of booze for the rest of his life. It’s about a relationship. It’s about education and support and information. Hamilton.
Hamilton Baiden 08:44
Yeah, what I would say, I always love to give this analogy, Fred, I love to play golf. And I’m an idiot, I don’t wear sunscreen every time I play golf. So let’s say that I got a mole on my arm. And I went to the dermatologist and he says, Hamilton, I hate to and for me, you have melanoma, but it’s really simple. I am a Mohs. surgeon, I know how to take it off. It’ll take me about 15 minutes, you’ll have a scar, but we’ll get the cancer, you’re going to be fine. But what if that doctor looked at me and said, You know what, Hamilton, I’m not going to do that surgery on you, because I don’t think you’ve learned your lesson. I don’t think you’re going to go out and play golf and wear sunscreen every time. So I think you need to you need to be willing to change your life. And so I will not do surgery on you until you’ve proven to me that you’re ready. So when you hit for stage four cancer, where it’s metastasized to your liver and your lungs, come see me and then we’ll treat you with full-blown chemotherapy. Now that sounds ridiculous, but that is exactly what we tell that we tell them, hey, when you’re ready, and it’s bad, and you’re ready to really quit forever, call us and I can’t tell you the number of people that we’ve talked to that have a brother or a son that died of a heroin overdose and they said he was not willing to quit, but he didn’t want to continue to live this life. And if you would have had this program in place where he could have started the journey without quitting forever, he would have absolutely done it. And he may still be here today. And that’s what we’re trying to do
Fred Goldstein 10:09
Tell us about the program itself. How does it work?
Hamilton Baiden 10:13
Well, it’s it’s interesting, because this has been a learning experience. It’s been an evolution, I call it a crusade, when we build Heritage Cares, it was really with the employer in mind. I mean, most people like their job, most people want to keep their job 70% of what they do is working. So we really thought that going to the employer and offering this program for employees, because what we know is this, out of all the people in this country, whether it’s the individual or the family member that struggles only 10% ever go get help. And as a recovered alcoholic, I was actually shocked by that, I was like, that doesn’t make sense. So as Rich says, We’ve got lots of great programs for those willing people that will raise their hand and call their EAP, or walk down the hall to HR, we can get them better. But what about the 90% that don’t want to live this way anymore, but they’re not willing to quit, because of the stigma, they’re not willing to raise their hand. So the program starts with this learning management system we’ve created called YouTurn. YouTurn is now the largest collection of counselor-led evidence-based videos in the in the country, really dedicated to education, stories and conversations, and we make it completely confidential. So when an employer buys this and launches it into their population, what we’re really trained to do is to engage those 90% of people that are struggling, that are having issues that are costing the company money that are not productive, that are late to work, don’t show up for work, all of these different things, but they’re not willing to be get help the traditional way. So it’s a way for them to start to learn, to get educated, to get hope, to get advice and start that journey. And Rich, I know you you’ve been an integral part of YouTurn, I’ll see if you want to add anything on about that before we go on.
Fred Goldstein 11:59
And then YouTurn is distributed in in ways that you distributed in the employee space. You know, I just did a webinar, for example. And we YouTurn was promoted. And we talked about how you could go on the platform, and you could do the educational series and how you could access a coach and things. So as far as distribution, we still at you know, in the employee space, we still have to have really good partners. And we still have to work through all the things that you work through. Like if you’re an EAP provider, I’ve been an EAP provider before, said, the other thing I wanted to mention about YouTurn is it goes back to that philosophy that we talked about earlier, if you were to watch the videos, the vibe is very much meet you where you’re at, you know, up with people, we love you no matter what this isn’t about any one size fits all approach. And we think that that makes it more palatable for folks who might be on the fence. And then the last thing I would say is this stress management package that we use, I have been fascinated with how much how much easier it is for somebody to get engaged in stress management help versus substance use disorder help. So you could watch a video on YouTurn about stress management. And we’ll be coming at it from this angle of if you learn how to deal with stress, then it helps you with with alcohol, it helps you with what you eat also, and it helps you with other self-destructive behaviors. So it’s that kind of philosophy and that kind of approach, Fred. And so a couple of questions on this. The first one is I assume an employee can access this and it’s confidential. Nobody knows that they’re watching these videos or, or learning or getting involved in that part of the program.
Hamilton Baiden 13:32
Yes, sir. So what we do is we will share with the employer, how many people went on how long they were on, what videos were consumed, things of that nature. But we would never go to your employer and said, Fred, watch three videos about a wife that was struggling with alcohol, or Fred was watching videos on cocaine use or anything like that. So it’s a safe place. Because as a as someone that has struggled with this before, there were many mornings that I woke up and went to Google and said, How do I drink in moderation? Or I’m struggling? What do I do? And it’s just it’s our it’s our philosophy that that’s probably the worst thing you can do a father that finds a bag of marijuana in their 16-year-old kids car. If you go into Google and ask that question, that kid’s going to end up in rehab faster than you can shake a stick. And it just I don’t think a 16-year-old kid that smokes weed one or two times needs to be in rehab right out of the gate. There’s other things that you can do before you go down that journey. But yes, it is confidential.
Fred Goldstein 14:30
And Rich, when you’ve talked about as you mentioned, it was evidence-based. So what’s it sort of built on what’s the framework?
Rich Jones 14:35
So the firm it’s built on a counseling approach called motivational interviewing and motivational interviewing is used in a lot of areas of health of healthcare for behavior change. It’s this idea of being very, very intentional about the way that you talk to people being nonconfrontational, nonjudgmental, avoiding argumentation, like this idea of avoiding waving your finger at Hamilton and saying, you really, you know, You’re drinking too much, and and it’s a way of a spirit to be honest with you, the way you come across. And you can catch that in the videos, you can catch that vibe. I’ve been practicing motivational interviewing for probably about 15 years. When I first got in the field, nobody taught me motivation interviewing, they literally told me that my job was to confront and break through denial. Motivational Interviewing says there is no such thing as denial. It’s just ambivalence. And we can work with that. So all the videos are done from that point of view, a couple other things that we that we incorporate into all the videos, positive psychology, positive psychology comes out of University of Pennsylvania, getting a lot of traction in a world today, it’s this idea of what’s right with you strength-based counseling techniques, harm reduction techniques, basic CBT philosophy, kind of like identify your thinking all of that is, is the foundation for the videos. And what I wanted to say is what’s interesting is about 46% of people who report so the study went like this. They asked Americans, have you ever had a problem with substance use or alcohol use? And have you resolved that problem? That was how that was the baseline question. And about 46% of people who reported Yes, they resolve that problem reported they did it on their own. So what we think is that there’s a fair number of people out there that will watch these videos and self-correct. And we will, we may never this is this is the part where it sounds like I’m, I’m blowing smoke, but we may never know how many people that was, if that makes sense, because they don’t wind up getting counted in an EAP caseload or anything like that. But 46% of people who are in recovery are in remission, reports that they figured it out on their own. Imagine how many more people could get it if they just got objective kind of evidence-based information. That’s what we’re trading on.
Gregg Masters 16:55
And if you’re just tuning into PopHealth Week, our guests are Hamilton Baiden, President, Heritage Health Solutions, and Rich Jones, Executive Vice President at Heritage Health Solutions, and the Executive Director of Heritage Cares. Heritage Health Solutions is an integrated health care management company providing a curated network of health care and pharmacy management services to improve patient care and reduce costs.
Fred Goldstein 17:22
And the program itself, as I understand goes beyond just the online training and education. So what else is being offered?
Hamilton Baiden 17:28
Yeah, exactly. So obviously, we do believe that there are some people that will get better on their own, but we want to be there for people that need more care. What we’ve tried to do is, is take all the difficulty out of this because if you’re struggling with this, and I’m a perfect example, I called a buddy of mine when I was at my lowest and he goes, if you need to go get help, you need to go today, because what happens is in about 24 hours you sober up or you have another drink, you feel better now you don’t need help anymore. So we’ve tried to make it really simple. So people can simply pick up the phone and call us after they go through and see the program, they can take a self-assessment, which really uses evidence-based materials like the Columbia Assessment and protocol for suicide, the Expert Model of really going through an evaluation to see if there’s issues with with substances or alcohol, and then those individuals that need it, we enroll them in what we call as our peer coaching program. Now I’m going to go on the record and tell you and Fred, you and I’ve talked before and you’ve heard me say this, I don’t like the term peer coaching. And the reason I don’t like it is because you and I could start a shop today and say we’re peer coach, and there’s no real regulation around it. We use a very, very specific model that Rich actually created about eight years ago called Assertive Community Engagement. And it really goes to everything we’ve talked about. It’s simply this we meet people wherever they are in this journey. We don’t call them alcoholics. We don’t call them addicts, we actually this is not about quitting drugs and alcohol or gambling or sex addiction or whatever it is for the rest of your life. It’s simply about evaluating where you are today. And do you want to take a step in a different direction. And if you do, we’re going to support you in that journey. That’s really what this is all about. Now, there will be people that take that step that we’re able to help them and guide them on our own and they need no additional care. Now there are going to be people that that have gone through this and they’re at the point, however, where they need more than what we provide, they may need inpatient rehab, like the Meadows they need may need medication-assisted therapy. The second part of the program is we connect them to that care, we stay with them, we engage them, we make sure they go get that care. That’s really what this is all about. Rich talks about it all the time. We are experts at one thing we are experts and get you started getting you going. Because here’s what we know, Fred, there was a recent study done at red flags the reference, they did a study on individuals that stayed engaged and what they found is is that if people keep trying 75% of them will get better. They will get into remission, they will get into reco recovery, quote-unquote, but they have to keep engaged and keep trying, it’s our job to make that happen.
Fred Goldstein 20:09
And so once they’ve gone through, and let’s say they’re sitting there going through some of these educational videos, and they say, I want to take the next step, they can then grab a coach or select a peer coach or something like
Hamilton Baiden 20:21
place a phone call take an assessments send us an email, we will give them their own coach that will guide them through this journey. Now, the cool thing about this is, we do it for the family, as well as the individual. So we have coaches that are family-specific coaches, these are these are peer coaches that have lived this as a family member, maybe they had a loved one that unfortunately passed away, maybe they lived through this with a loved one that made it, but they’ve got lived experience. They’ve been trained on everything we’ve talked about. And then we have individual peer coaches all are in recovery, same philosophy, we may have an individual that their family has their own coach, they have a different coach, or it may be the same coach coaching each. It’s just, it’s really dependent on the situation.
Rich Jones 21:04
So they’re all so all the coaches have a baseline certification, Fred. So in each state, it’s called something different. What we do, we insist on the baseline certification to State level, but we also certify them at the national level, we have our own internal training academy. And so you’ll come with that with that baseline education, which is, which which is pretty refined, to be honest with you, like we have some good stuff going around the nation in terms of certifying peers. But what we do, like we have a class starting this Thursday, for example, is we certify them in this Assertive Engagement model, this Assertive Community Engagement model, because we feel like you start with that baseline knowledge, but we’re really going to pound home, this paradigm shift or this philosophical approach that you cannot give up on his client. That it, you cannot come to one of our supervision groups and report that Oh, Hamilton, I don’t know where he is, man. He’s just not doing what he’s supposed to do. And you know, there’s no discharge, we don’t, even if there’s a relapse, there’s no discharge. The idea will be that if we, we are the ones that are, I don’t want to say this, so the person is a better way. The person, by definition has a disorder, like literally say it’s substance use disorder. But yet, we expect them to make the rational decision to get better the ration, we are the ones that should be figuring that out, we’re the one that should be making the extra phone call. Our research has indicated things like we know that you have to text five or six times before you’ll get a call on the books, we’ve learned that about the process. There’s nothing easy about it. And so if you say you got to be willing, you can see how the majority of folks wouldn’t even they just would opt-out, they would Oh,
Fred Goldstein 22:44
and it is the key. I mean, you mentioned this importance of engagement, which is so critical for everything we see in the chronic care management space, you know, all these things, and obviously, in this space as well. So is what are some of the key things you talked about learning about text engagement? Are there any other things you do uniquely to keep people engaged to help them through this process?
Rich Jones 23:04
It starts with that motivational interviewing approach that model where all the coaches are taught how to talk to people using open-ended questions, being nonconfrontational, being accepting, unconditional positive regard, all of that. And then the texting the effort, the rhythm around that the consistency around that we’ve studied things like the use of humor on text we’ve studied, we’re able to use some of the videos from YouTurn, to reengage people or to keep people’s head in the game. And then the other area, Hamilton alluded to this, we get the family involved. So the strategy is, let me talk to Hamilton get a release of information to talk to his mom. So once we have them involved, if the person falls off, then we can get so what we do on the very first call is we say to the person who’s important in your life, who do you have, this is really the only thing that we do on our intake. We’re not trying to get diagnosis, we’re not trying to do eligibility, who do you have in your life that supports you, and then that becomes a main contact. And I have to tell you that frequently is how we get a person back.
Fred Goldstein 24:05
Got it.
Rich Jones 24:06
And then the other thing, the last thing I’ll add Sorry to interrupt you is we’ve got to convey to the patient, this idea of recovery or treatment, it’s not a pass-fail exam, that it is okay to mess up. And it’s okay to slip up and have drank again. Let’s just get you back in a wagon. We have to sell that to the patient to keep them engaged.
Fred Goldstein 24:27
And do you have some results on outcomes of the program? Things like that, obviously you’re working with some fairly sophisticated clients.
Hamilton Baiden 24:33
Yep, absolutely. So we have actually there was a clinical trial that was done on the ACE model. This was a trial that was done with Prisma health in Greenville, South Carolina and Clemson University and it was a fairly in terms of clinical trials. It’s very simple way to explain it. These were patients that had been admitted to the hospital, either with drug or alcohol issues and so difficult patients and it was very simple. The control group was treatment as usual. Maybe it was inpatient rehab, maybe it was intense. outpatient, maybe it was MAT, cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever. The second group, same treatment as usual, but they were given an ACE coach at their disposal one of our coaches for six months. And at the end of the trial, it was it was pretty astounding the treatment is usual group, at the end of six months, 34%, we’re still engaged with that treatment. If you had one of our coaches, the number was 84%. And that the graph is phenomenal. Obviously, out of the gate, you get a little bit of engagement in the control group, our engagement shoots up to like 80%. And then our engagement even continues to creep up a little bit over six months, the control group falls off the face of the earth after 30 days. And it’s just again, it’s this mindset that we don’t give up. And I think Fred stories, some of the stories are really what what get people to understand this. And if you’re okay with that, I’ll give you a story of an individual that we helped and kind of put this all together Will that work?
Fred Goldstein 25:56
Yeah go ahead
Hamilton Baiden 25:57
We had a we had a patient that had been admitted to the hospital. He was a Vietnam veteran. He was an amputee that had lost his leg. This is not a joke. This guy had been admitted to the hospital 22 times in a six-month period every single time it was for alcohol. And every single time the hospital looked at him and said you have a problem. You’re an alcoholic, you need to go get help. You need to go to detox. You need to go to rehab. And every single time, I’ll be nice, and I won’t say what he said. But he said FU I’m not going Leave me alone. He walked out the next week he was back. And so finally they came to Rich and they said Rich, can you help this guy? so Rich said sure. So Rich, got on the phone with them and said, Look, I only have one question for you. Do you need a place to sleep tonight? The guy goes, yes. Rich got him into the Salvation Army. And he said is only one caveat. I want you to meet with me one day, every day this week. That’s it. guy said sure. So Rich showed up and Rich always tells the story brought him a bottle of water and a Cliff Bar and he still doesn’t know why he brought him Cliff Bar, but he did. And he sat down with him. And he never once brought up alcohol. He never asked him about alcohol. He asked him how he was you know about his life. They talked. On the fifth day, the guy actually brought up Rich has still not said a word about alcohol. The guy brought up that he really missed his family and Rich said well tell me more. And he said, well, about two years ago, I’ve got an issue with alcohol, some counselor told my pet my family to never talk to me again, that until I was willing to get better, they should abandon me. And that’s what they did. And so Rich said, Do you miss them? And he’s like, yeah, I miss them dearly. So Rich, called the family got the family involved. It turned out that the guy was embarrassed about his not having a leg, he didn’t want to go to rehab because of that. When Rich said, Look, we’ve got connections with veterans and organizations, the guy ended up going, he’s been sober for six months. Now ill he stay sober for the rest of his life, who the hell knows? But I know this, if rich said approached him the way everyone else had, that guy would have never talked to us and never started this journey. So what we’ve learned Fred is most people don’t want to live in this hell that they’re living at. But they’re, they’re not willing to raise their hand and quit forever. At the beginning. They’re just not ready for it.
Fred Goldstein 28:11
Absolutely, its a great story. It makes a lot of sense. You know, fantastic to hear. It’d be great to sort of follow on maybe down the road and just get more about, you know, what you’re doing in this whole area, because obviously, substance abuse is critical. I noticed you’ve got some stuff about COVID on your website, anxiety, etc. So with that, I want to thank you, Hamilton, and Rich for coming on PopHealth Week. It’s been fantastic getting both of you.
Hamilton Baiden 28:33
Thank you Fred for having us.
Fred Goldstein 28:35
Great. And then I’ll turn it back over to you, Greg.
Gregg Masters 28:37
And thank you, Fred. That is the last word for today’s broadcast. I want to thank Hamilton Baden, President Heritage Health Solutions and Rich Jones, Executive Vice President at Heritage Health Solutions and the executive director of Heritage Cares for their time and insights today. For more information on Heritage’s services go to www.heritagehealthsolutions.com and follow them on Twitter via @Heritageorg. And finally, if you’re enjoying our work here at PopHealth Week, please subscribe to our channel on the podcast platform of your choice and do follow us on twitter via @PopHealthWeek. Bye now.